tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post4045774759332648099..comments2023-12-06T11:18:27.198+01:00Comments on ThinkShop: Wagner and Buddha, Tristan and IsoldeP. M. Doolanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-43327897670641352492014-12-13T15:37:54.105+01:002014-12-13T15:37:54.105+01:00Hi John,
I hope you enjoyed the opera - sublime m...Hi John,<br /><br />I hope you enjoyed the opera - sublime music. Yes, I think the option is that the darkness represents the end to suffering, therefore the end to desire, which is, as you pointed out, not very romantic.<br /><br />I've heard it said that there is a chance that Hume encountered a Jesuit who had been in the Far East as a missionary and who informed him of some of the basics regarding Buddhism.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />PaulP. M. Doolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-10979475285327327412014-12-10T16:57:06.644+01:002014-12-10T16:57:06.644+01:00A very interesting article and comments. I came a...A very interesting article and comments. I came across it while doing some reading before seeing the opera at the Royal Opera House earlier this week. It was the first time I had seen the opera, and I was left wondering just how well Tristan and Isolde did illustrate Schopenhauer’s philosophy. <br /><br />In Schopenhauer’s noumenal world there is no self, no individual will. Individuation is an aspect of the phenomenal world. So, in longing for the darkness what were they hoping for? <br /><br />One could imagine that they were hoping to have their desire for each other in some sense perpetually satisfied in the timeless world of the noumenal, the distractions of the phenomenal world having been taken away leaving only their souls together. A very romantic idea but is this Schopenhauer? <br /><br />Or were they hoping that the noumenal would bring an end to the suffering that their love for each other gave rise to, doing this through the cessation of their desire for each other? Not at all romantic, but perhaps more in line with the Scopenhauerian will. <br /><br />Another alternative is that I’ve missed the point!<br /><br />The influence of Buddhism on western philosophy is also very interesting. There is now a train of thought that David Hume encountered Buddhism while writing the Treatise at La Fleche, and that this may have influenced his own ‘no-self’ doctrine:<br /><br />“For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception.” Treatise 1.4.6.3<br />John Robinsonhttp://londonempiricist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-19183326147505322102013-12-06T14:01:27.901+01:002013-12-06T14:01:27.901+01:00Thanks for sharing these memories which have clear...Thanks for sharing these memories which have clearly had a profound impact on your life Richard. I can understand how the music of Tristan und Isolde speaks to them.P. M. Doolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-43289709664266684812013-12-02T19:29:21.643+01:002013-12-02T19:29:21.643+01:00Of all experiences in my seventy-six years, two me...Of all experiences in my seventy-six years, two memories of my adult life stand out as spiritually unique. They were brief sexual encounters with two different men, both unknown to me, at widely spaced different times and places. <br /><br />During those moments, I somehow crossed that frontier between the physical world of my "mortal illusions", passing freely into a realm of transcendent communion with two other beings . To this very day each erotic encounter has seemed at least mysterious, if not other worldly, perhaps even angelic. <br /><br />Since my early teen years, I have dwelled almost daily with the unresolved call of Tristan and Isolde. Its enigmatic music ceaselessly stirs within me, tugging at my consciousness as the years have morphed ever more distantly into memories. <br /><br />Yet, during all that time, two profoundly erotic "illusions", at once both Earthly and other worldly, have dwelled within me. <br /><br />Perhaps that transcendent realm of haunting emptiness and formless beauty awaits those among us who, in their own good time, enter unafraid. <br /><br />Richard Lager<br />Colrain, MA Richard Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00473821916706245460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-68461088378906738842013-11-18T22:23:14.495+01:002013-11-18T22:23:14.495+01:00Thanks for your thoughtful comment Richard. I'...Thanks for your thoughtful comment Richard. I'm glad you got something from the article. Good luck in your quest.P. M. Doolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-46336459933681368142013-11-17T21:21:41.489+01:002013-11-17T21:21:41.489+01:00Joseph Campbell introduced me to the Wagner-Schope...Joseph Campbell introduced me to the Wagner-Schopenhauer-Nietzche-Gautama connection . Isn't Schopenhauer and Wagner doing what all beginner Buddhists do, confuse renunciation with abstinence? Applying end of life philosophy to all age groups is a great tragedy, each has its place. I see Tristan and Isolde (romantic) and Parsifal (compassion) as a duality and a progression (yes that seems paradoxical but everything can't be explained), up the chakra ladder. Giving up the one for the other aspersc risis. I am currently at that point so living this firsthand, not some intellectual exercise. Your article is helping me make more sense of my prior school philosophy and its influence (damage) from a personal perspective, and the east west connection. <br /><br />Buddhism saving the West...not so far fetched...I think it might save the entire planet, since it has always had respect for the natural world, embraced modern science, and that admits the by design its not so easy to see the big picture, if there even is one.Au Pachahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00517773668006649669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-68442202500815995802012-10-28T16:11:56.766+01:002012-10-28T16:11:56.766+01:00The ideology might be mistaken, but the music rema...The ideology might be mistaken, but the music remains. I hope you can enjoy despite objections to some of the ideas.<br />thanks for your comment Alphasun.P. M. Doolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-23816917113572101862012-10-27T00:12:08.438+02:002012-10-27T00:12:08.438+02:00Can the sublime be achieved without a rhetorical a...Can the sublime be achieved without a rhetorical allusion to immortality in some form (in this case, Buddhist concepts)? Unfortunately, although the aria is great, for me the presence of ideology ("world-breath") in the lyrics weakens the humanity of a scene, which, like Ophelia's mad scene, already has a tenuous hold on reality.<br />It's interesting but also somewhat disappointing to learn that Wagner linked the excellent mnemonic leitmotif technique with reincarnation.alphasunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09179223520184169961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-45940215676387852952012-01-07T12:53:11.006+01:002012-01-07T12:53:11.006+01:00Good point. I think sex or orgasm is quasi-mystic...Good point. I think sex or orgasm is quasi-mystical as magee says, but only in its sublimated symbolic form - when it is translated into art. This implies a denial of sex in its worldly sense, which, as you say, Wagner wasn't very good at doing. Thanks for you comment.P. M. Doolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-78172326578400136522011-12-26T10:02:38.265+01:002011-12-26T10:02:38.265+01:00Great article. Thank you. I'm currently read...Great article. Thank you. I'm currently reading Bryan Magee's book, "The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy" where he elaborates on the ideas you bring up. However, one thing confounds me -- the business of sex being part of Desire and therefore needing to be renounced. And yet, sex serves as a great release for the lovers of Tristan and Isolde. As Magee writes (paraphrasing Schopenhauer's own thoughts): "Orgasm is not only the ultimate experience but a quasi-mystical one that carries us to the very centre of life's mystery."<br /><br />So is sex good or bad in the Schopenhaurian equation? <br /><br />And it goes without saying that Wagner himself was a very poor practicing Buddhist what with his profligate lifestyle and demanding only the best that money could buy. I wonder how he reconciled that with his newfound philosophy.Whirlwindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722053144850412281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-13345163074975506092011-02-03T10:24:44.215+01:002011-02-03T10:24:44.215+01:00Thank you for your comment Janu. Indeed, India is...Thank you for your comment Janu. Indeed, India is the source of so many profound ideas and systems of thought and it is astonishing how often these are ignored by westerners.P. M. Doolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-19043646473869951282011-02-02T18:40:37.734+01:002011-02-02T18:40:37.734+01:00A brilliant piece of writing. Recently I was in Bo...A brilliant piece of writing. Recently I was in Bonn and visited Beethoven's birthplace, reviving my interest in his 5th symphony and Mozart's 40th Symphony. I came to this page while searching for articles by Cosima Wagner.<br /><br />Much before even Buddha, six schools of philosophy had developed in India, in which time was considered as an illusion. There is no such thing as time. We need this concept when we have the need to measure a phenomenon- like our mortal life. As T.S.Eliot put it, all time is eternally present.<br /><br />Similarly space had no significance and the relativity of space was described in cosmic terms of movement of planets. Thus the earth would be a microscopic dust particle, and a life span could be no longer than a micro-second. The challenge for humanity thus was to create collective immortality through individual detachment, so that society could survive. Thanks.januhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09612123722083107312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-82482295519773229422010-03-03T08:23:39.234+01:002010-03-03T08:23:39.234+01:00Hi J,
Thanks for your comment and for putting a li...Hi J,<br />Thanks for your comment and for putting a link to my article on your blog.<br />I'm not sure about Wagner renouncing Buddhism after the Ring. The Ring itself is saturated with Buddhist and Schopenhaurian ideas. Even the musical score, with its hundreds of leitmotivs, signifies reincarnation (according to Wagner himself, not just according to me. Many believe that Wagner's final opera, Parsifal, was his most Buddhist. Then again, others see it as his most Christain - for instance Nietzche, who was disgusted by its Christianity and insipid nationalism - while others see it as a sort of gnostic, occultic work. Debussy considered it an esoteric work, literally. Hitler loved it but Goebbels banned it. Most recently Paul Scholfield has published a book claiming that Parsifal is actually the fifth opera of the Ring and that the entire cycle is Buddhist. I tend to agree to the extent that I think Wagner always continued to see himself, at least partly, as a Buddhist. A bad Buddhist maybe.<br />You are of course right about Nietzche. He despised Christianity for giving so much importance to sympathy, an virtue according to him which implied a false sense of superiority. Buddhism, on the other hand, offers few false illusions.<br />Thanks again for your comment.P. M. Doolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673509230835222713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740147662943742025.post-77359610669977640232010-03-02T23:45:23.236+01:002010-03-02T23:45:23.236+01:00Interesting, though I have read Wagner--at least a...Interesting, though I have read Wagner--at least after the Ring--renounced, to some degree, his earlier pagan and/or buddhistic beliefs. Schopenhauer's writings also influenced Nietzsche, and Nietzsche, while not giving his blessing to Gautama , seems to consider Buddhism worthier than judeo-christian tradition...<br /><br />That said, Schopenhauer's views on buddhism should not be considered equal to the new-agey leftist buddhism of 60s and 70s. Professional metaphysician I am not, but Schopenhauer most likely felt the eastern religions upheld a sort of immanent idealism closer to his own views--Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.com